the desolation of egypt .
jeremiah 43:8-13 .
then the word of yhwh came to jeremiah in tahpanhes, saying, "take large stones in your hands and hide them in the mortar in the brick which is at the entrance of pharaoh's palace in tahpanhes in the sight of some jewish men and say to them, 'thus says yhwh of hosts, the god of israel, "behold, i am going to send and get nebuchadnezzar the king of babel, my servant, and i am going to set his throne over these stones that i have hidden; and he will spread his canopy over them.
Pete,
Did you mean JC's? I looked at certain weblinks that try and defend this 40 year desolation prophecy and guess what? A guy called Jim Reilly defends it with yet another revised Egyptian chronology. None of these revised chronologies ever seem to match each other.
the desolation of egypt .
jeremiah 43:8-13 .
then the word of yhwh came to jeremiah in tahpanhes, saying, "take large stones in your hands and hide them in the mortar in the brick which is at the entrance of pharaoh's palace in tahpanhes in the sight of some jewish men and say to them, 'thus says yhwh of hosts, the god of israel, "behold, i am going to send and get nebuchadnezzar the king of babel, my servant, and i am going to set his throne over these stones that i have hidden; and he will spread his canopy over them.
I just wanted to point out a couple of other lines of evidence to show that Nebuchadnezzar never conquered or desolated Egypt and that he was not the ruler of the whole of the known world.
Firstly Nebuchadnezzar II was famous for his building work in Babylon, including the hanging gardens. Something else he built was called the Median Wall. This wall was to the north of Babylon and stretched between the Tigris and Euphrates rivers. The Greeks believed this wall to be 100 feet high. The point is that this was a defensive wall to keep out the Medes from the north. Although Nebuchadnezzar had formed an alliance with this kingdom he realised that the Medes were becoming stronger and were becoming a threat to him. An alliance does not mean he ruled over the Medes and the wall proves he was fearful of an attack.
Herodotus mentions that the Babylonians mediated the peace between Media and Lydia after the battle of the eclipse in 585BCE but does not say that Nebuchadnezzar ruled these nations.
There are many archaeological and historical lines of evidence that show that rather than being made desolate by the Babylonians, the Egyptians under the Saite dynasty from Psammeticus I to Amasis were very prosperous. We can date the lengths of rule of these pharoahs using Apis bull stelae and death stelae. These give the lengths of the reigns of the first four pharoahs of the Saite dynasty as follows:
Psammeticus I - 54 years; Necho II - 15 years; Psammeticus II - 6 years; Hophra - 19 years.
Herodotus and Manetho both give the lengths of reigns of Amasis and Psammeticus II as 44 years and six months respectively. These lengths of reigns are also confirmed by various Persian documents and inscriptions.
According to the bible this 40 year desolation could not have happened until after the reign of Hophra. 2 Kings 24:7 shows that in the reign of Necho II Nebuchadnezzar had only conquered as far as the Egyptian border, and Jeremiah 44:30 says that Hophra (who was still ruling) would be given into the hands of his enemies.
So is there any evidence for a Babylonian conquest of Egypt during the reign of Amasis. After Amasis siezed the throne from Hophra there was a period of great prosperity and peace in Egypt. Numerous business documents have been discovered which show the prosperity enjoyed by Egypt at this time. To curb excessive wealth private individuals were encouraged to donate land to temples. These transactions are recorded in donation stelae.
Although the Egyptians no longer tried to expand eastwards, their sea trade and naval expeditions expanded much further than Syria. Herodotus and Diodorus comment extensively on this period. Diodorus says that Cyprus was captured during the reign of Amasis and Herodotus speaks of treaties between Amasis and Croesus of Lydia (Histories I.77) and Polycrates of Samos (Histories III.39). There are also many surviving records from Egyptian naval commanders who served under Hophra and Amasis.
There is a fragmentary text that shows a campaign by Nebuchadnezzar in his 37th year against Amasis but the objectives are uncertain being described as 'remote territories amid the sea'. Maybe this was to combat Egypt's growing influence in the eastern Mediterranean. But as yet not one inscription has been found in Egypt showing Nebuchadnezzar ruling.
i just had my first "annual" visit since leaving over 3 years ago.
someone in my family told me elder so and so stopped to see me.
so i knew they were on my trail.
I had a visit by an elder a few months ago, even though it's been nearly a decade since I left.
I thought 'what the hell' and invited him in. He was really nice though and talked about his family, my family and others I'd not seen in years. After about 20 minutes or so he said something strange. He said "I really should be encouraging you to come back to the hall but I'm not going to".
After that he talked about how no-one really cared for older people at the hall these days or visited them like they used to. He said 30 years or so ago the witnesses looked after each other more.
He stayed for about an hour after which I wondered who was meant to be encouraging who!
And that was it.
the desolation of egypt .
jeremiah 43:8-13 .
then the word of yhwh came to jeremiah in tahpanhes, saying, "take large stones in your hands and hide them in the mortar in the brick which is at the entrance of pharaoh's palace in tahpanhes in the sight of some jewish men and say to them, 'thus says yhwh of hosts, the god of israel, "behold, i am going to send and get nebuchadnezzar the king of babel, my servant, and i am going to set his throne over these stones that i have hidden; and he will spread his canopy over them.
Skiz,
with reference to the publication produced by the WTS, that you call attention to, I don't accept just anything that its writers say as being gospel truth either
If that is how you feel about WTS books and writers then I'm not sure why you have earlier quoted from the 'Revelation, Grand Climax' book to defend your argument.
Your basic argument is that Egypt must have been conquered by Nebuchadnezzar because the dream prophecy in Daniel 2 calls Nebuchadnezzar 'King of kings' and the ruler of all men. There is also the prophecy of the desolation of Egypt which started this thread. Do you know why this prophecy was given?
Jeremiah chapter 37 shows how Pharoah sent an army to help Jerusalem and break the Babylonian seige but then it withdrew. Jeremiah blamed Jerusalem's seige and destruction on Judah's continued reliance on Egypt. Judah chose wrongly as Egypt was weaker than Babylon. So in the end Egypt let Judah down by failing to defend Jerusalem. So this is why the prophecy is given that Egypt would also be made desolate by Nebuchadnezzar.
But the bible never speaks of Nebuchadnezzar actually conquering Egypt apart from in prophecies. Secular sources and the bible AGREE that Nebuchadnezzar only captured as far as the border of Egypt. The Babylonian Chronicle agrees with 2 Kings 24 v7 that Nebuchadnezzar only conquered as far as the brook of Egypt (a desert stream on the border of Egypt). There is a fragmentary Babylonian text which may indicate a campaign against Pharoah Amasis in 568 BC but its objectives are unclear.
As I've previously discussed Egyptian kinglists are unbroken for the Saite dynasty as follows: Psammeticus I 664-610; Necho I 610-595; Psammeticus II 595-589; Apries 589-570; Amasis 570-526; Psammeticus III 526-525. Then there are Persian rulers after Cambyses conquered Egypt.
why is it though that you yourself would prefer to trust the world's history books over what the Bible itself says?
I like to look at as many sources as possible when looking at a historial event and I include the bible in these sources. But I make a distinction in the bible between actual historical events and prophecies. Can I ask why you view the verse at Daniel 2:38 so literally? A literal reading would mean that God had given Nebuchadnezzar every man, bird and beast in the whole inhabited earth to rule over. Why would Babylonian documents not confirm this world supremacy?
the desolation of egypt .
jeremiah 43:8-13 .
then the word of yhwh came to jeremiah in tahpanhes, saying, "take large stones in your hands and hide them in the mortar in the brick which is at the entrance of pharaoh's palace in tahpanhes in the sight of some jewish men and say to them, 'thus says yhwh of hosts, the god of israel, "behold, i am going to send and get nebuchadnezzar the king of babel, my servant, and i am going to set his throne over these stones that i have hidden; and he will spread his canopy over them.
Skiz,
Here's a quote about Nebuchadnezzar in another book I have:
'During his reign of 43 years, he took possession of the territories once occupied by the Assyrian World Power and extended his domain, taking in Syria to the north and Palestine to the west down to the border of Egypt.'
The book also has a map of the Babylonian Empire which does not include Egypt, Elam, Media, Anatolia, Scythia, Persia, Greece etc etc..
See pages 63-64 of the book 'Pay Attention to Daniel's Prophecy' 1999 published by The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania.
Will this reference do??
the desolation of egypt .
jeremiah 43:8-13 .
then the word of yhwh came to jeremiah in tahpanhes, saying, "take large stones in your hands and hide them in the mortar in the brick which is at the entrance of pharaoh's palace in tahpanhes in the sight of some jewish men and say to them, 'thus says yhwh of hosts, the god of israel, "behold, i am going to send and get nebuchadnezzar the king of babel, my servant, and i am going to set his throne over these stones that i have hidden; and he will spread his canopy over them.
Sorry Schizm.
Try the following books:
Babylon - Joan Oates ISBN 0-500-27384-7 (particularly chapter 5 pages 126 - 139) Assyrians, Babylonians, Persians and Greeks.
The Cambridge Ancient History Vol III Part 2. The Assyrian and Babylonian Empires and other States of the Near East, From the Eighth to the Sixth Century B.C. - various ISBN 0-521-22717-8
This volume is written by various authors, some of whom are often quoted by the Watchtower Society. Chapters to read on this subject are: Chapter 21: The Fall of Assyria (635-609 BC) by Joan Oates; Chapter 27: Babylonia 605-539 BC by D.J.Wiseman; Chapter 30: Judah until the fall of Jerusalem 700-586 BC by T.C.Mitchell; Chapter 35: Egypt, The 25th and 26th Dynasties by T.G.H. James.
For brief information about the rise of the Persian Empire see 'The Greek and Persian Wars 499 - 386 BC by Philip de Souza ISBN 1-84176-358-6 pages 19-24 Kyros the Great and the Persian Empire.
For a full list of Egyptian rulers and dynasties try 'Egypt, The World of the Pharoahs' edited by Schulz and Seidel ISBN 3-89508-913-3 pages 528-529 for chronological table based on Jurgen von Beckerath (Chronologie des pharaonischen Agypten)
Hope these references are helpful.
the desolation of egypt .
jeremiah 43:8-13 .
then the word of yhwh came to jeremiah in tahpanhes, saying, "take large stones in your hands and hide them in the mortar in the brick which is at the entrance of pharaoh's palace in tahpanhes in the sight of some jewish men and say to them, 'thus says yhwh of hosts, the god of israel, "behold, i am going to send and get nebuchadnezzar the king of babel, my servant, and i am going to set his throne over these stones that i have hidden; and he will spread his canopy over them.
SS
After the battle of Carchemish the Egyptians withdrew from Syria and Palestine and Babylon took control of these areas. Cities in the area including Jerusalem then paid tribute to Babylon.
But after the battle at the Egyptian border in 601BCE, because of Nebuchadnezzar's losses, Jehoiachim stopped tribute payments to Babylon and suffered the consequences a few years later.
Again a decade later the Egyptians made in-roads into Palestine causing Nebuchadnezzar to send another army to the area. Zedekiah had swapped his allegiance to Egypt at the time and again Jerusalem suffered the consequences. Jerusalem was destroyed simply because the city leaders wrongly chose weaker Egypt as an ally.
the desolation of egypt .
jeremiah 43:8-13 .
then the word of yhwh came to jeremiah in tahpanhes, saying, "take large stones in your hands and hide them in the mortar in the brick which is at the entrance of pharaoh's palace in tahpanhes in the sight of some jewish men and say to them, 'thus says yhwh of hosts, the god of israel, "behold, i am going to send and get nebuchadnezzar the king of babel, my servant, and i am going to set his throne over these stones that i have hidden; and he will spread his canopy over them.
Hi there Schizm.
in view of the above, how can you say that "Egypt was never conquered by Nebuchadnezzar"?
Simply because it wasn't. In fact a quick look at any history book shows that Babylon was never a 'World Empire'. To the bible a world empire seems to be any foreign power who had control over Palestine.
Babylon was one of several states that fought with each other during the 6th century BCE including Egypt, Lydia, Media, and Scythia. An alliance of Medes, Scythians and Babylonians had destroyed the Assyrian Empire by about 609BCE. Egypt and Babylon then fought over Syria and Palestine with the Babylonians being victorious at Carchemish in 605BCE. But when Nebuchadnezzar marched against Egypt in 601BCE he was turned away at the border with heavy casualties on each side. Nebuchadnezzar kept power through a series of treaties with northern Media.
The real 'World Power' was the Persian Empire. Under Cyrus the Persians brought first Media then Babylon under Persian rule. It was Cyrus' son Cambyses who finally conquered Egypt which led to over 100 years of Persian rule.
So although Babylonian rule encompassed most of the former Assyrian provinces, Syria and Palestine it did not include Persia(Elam), Media, Lydia or Egypt. In no way could Nebuchadnezzar be described as 'ruler over all mankind'.
scholar,.
back on october 7, you said:i will respond to your response to the historical blunder made by franz and jonsson as alleged by me in a couple of days.. .
(the post was http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/12/59355/901501/post.ashx#901501 the thread was wts chronology(oslo hypothesis) from vicar;trinity college fellow,cambridge.).
Ozzie!
Another degree???
That was funny!
dunno how many of you are hard core lord of the rings fans, but i am so looking forward to seeing this movie.
personally i can't wait to see the paths of the dead.
any particular part you are especially impatient to see on the big screen?.
Hi Adam,
Can't wait to watch the Return of the King either. The Two Towers was the first film I'd seen TWICE at the cinema since Raiders of the Lost Ark 20-odd years ago!!
There are plenty of other prats like the guy you quote from the guardian who make a living out of political correctness.
